Episode 108: The Resourceful Artist with Irene Christodoulakis

Written By Nathalie Kalbach

About This Episode

In this conversation, we explore the creative journey of Jersey City native Irene Christodoulakis, whose work spans from grassroots art initiatives to major HBO productions, and how deep roots in a place can inspire authentic storytelling.

Meet Irene Christodoulakis

Irene is a screenwriter, gallery assistant at Art House Gallery, and film industry professional who grew up in Greenville, Jersey City. Her award-winning screenplay about underground women's boxing set in 1930s Jersey City reflects her interest in telling stories of people who attempted to be trailblazers but didn't succeed, drawing inspiration from historical context while setting stories in familiar places, while her work on sets of shows like The Penguin and The Gilded Age showcases her success in the broader creative world.

Connect with Irene:

  • Instagram: @eyereen

Key Insights

  • Growing up in Jersey City instills a unique resourcefulness that translates into creative problem-solving

  • Libraries served as crucial access points to education and opportunity for first-generation Americans

  • The Jersey City arts community's welcoming nature created pathways for younger generations

  • There's value in telling stories of people who tried to make change and didn't succeed, not just the trailblazers

  • Neighborhoods like Greenville deserve more attention in Jersey City's cultural narrative

  • Being proactive and putting yourself out there is essential for creating opportunities

  • Local stories, like that of Venus Xtravaganza, have cultural impacts that extend far beyond city limits

Visual Documentation

“Public Library, Jersey City, N. J.,” Jersey City Public Library Postcard Collection, accessed April 29, 2025, https://jcfplpostcards.omeka.net/items/show/476.

Rollerskating on the Loew’s Theatre roof in the 30s - courtesy of The Friends of the Loew’s

Journal Square late 30s/40s

Related Resources

Explore Further

On next week's Substack, I'll be sharing an article exploring LGBTQ+ histories from Jersey City, inspired by Irene's mention of Venus Xtravaganza and the recently landmarked home where she once lived with her grandmother.

Coming Up Next

Join me for a conversation with Ted Chubb, world-class trumpeter and co-owner of The Statuary, a home open to the community that invites people to enjoy jazz.

Connect with Nat

Music: Our theme music is "How You Amaze Me," composed by Jim Kalbach and performed by Jim Kalbach, Bryan Beninghove, Charlie Siegler, and Pat Van Dyke.

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Nat's Sidewalk Stories explores the intersection of place, community, and storytelling through conversations with practitioners, community leaders, and local changemakers. New episodes release on the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of each month through August, with a break in September before Season 2 begins in October.

Transcript

NSSP 108 with Irene Christodoulakis

Note: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability while preserving the conversation's content and meaning.

Nat Kalbach: Welcome to Nat's Sidewalk Stories. I'm Nat Kalbach, an artist and storyteller exploring the places, people, and hidden histories that make our neighborhoods vibrant. Today I'm talking with Irene Christodoulakis, a true Jersey City native whose creative journey spans from working with grassroots art initiatives to major HBO productions. As a screenwriter, gallery assistant at Art House Gallery, and film industry professional, Irene embodies the resourceful spirit that defines our city. What fascinates me about her story is how deeply rooted she is in Jersey City while she simultaneously builds a career in the broader creative world. From her award-winning screenplay about underground women's boxing, which is set in 1930s Jersey City, to her work on sets of shows like The Penguin and The Gilded Age, Irene brings a unique perspective shaped by growing up in Greenville.

In our conversation, we explore the value of community arts, the untold stories of neighborhoods beyond downtown, and why authentic representation matters now more than ever.

Hi Irene, I'm so happy that you're here.

Irene Christodoulakis: Thank you for having me, Nat.

Nat Kalbach: We've known each other online first through Instagram, and then we met through Art House Productions where you are the gallery assistant at Art House Gallery, and you are an amazing supporter of local artists, including myself. But before we dive in, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself and your connection to Jersey City?

Irene Christodoulakis: Sure. My name is Irene and I am a Jersey City native. I've lived here almost three decades now in the same neighborhood in Greenville, right off Audubon Park. I was educated in the Jersey City public school system. I went to high school and graduated from college here in Jersey City. I graduated from St. Peter's. And even though my career has taken me not just into New York State, but all around the East Coast, I've always tried to make Jersey City a priority with whatever it is that I do.

Nat Kalbach: I love that, that you have such strong connections. I think it's probably no secret to you as a real Jersey Citian, you rarely really meet someone who grew up in Jersey City. I think most of the people that I know, of the younger people, they just moved as well.

Irene Christodoulakis: No, you're right. We're a dying breed. I always joke about that. Whenever I introduce myself to someone new and they discover that I've lived here my whole life and I'm a Jersey City native, they're amazed. I feel like a puffin or something or one of those rare birds in the Amazon, like, "Whoa, you still exist?" It's like, "Yeah, just deep, deep in the neighborhood."

Nat Kalbach: It's there. So speaking of that, how would you say that growing up in and having your childhood here in Jersey City, how did the city shape you? What is something that you would say that's something that a true person grown up in Jersey City shaped?

Irene Christodoulakis: Well, it's character building. I really feel like there's, and maybe not just in Jersey City, but people from the greater New York metropolitan area, you know, most of us have no money, so you kind of have to make do with whatever's available. And there's jokes online now about like, what's the poorest thing you've ever had to do? And they like cut out holes in cans and use it as water pressure in the shower, or, you know, my mother, when we were growing up, we live in a very old house, and it's so old, it runs on oil, not gas. So every winter you have to buy oil, but we never had enough money for the whole winter or even a portion of the winter. So the house would be freezing and we would be in the cold every winter. But what my mom did was she went to the dollar store and they had, they were called the Vix makes 'em, there's like these vaporizers, they were like 15 bucks at the time, and you fill them up with water and put a little bit of salt and they emit this warm steam. And she put that in the bedroom and that's how we stayed warm through the winter. And that's just my personal example.

But I feel like every time I meet somebody from Jersey City or Newark or the Bronx or Harlem, we all have stories like that. It's just about the level of resourcefulness that I don't think other people have, and I think there's something really amazing about that because then that translates as an adult, you figure out how to maneuver various situations, not just in your personal life, but in your work life. You kind of always find a solution.

Nat Kalbach: I love that. That makes total sense for me. So what was your experience like growing up here in Jersey City? Were there specific streets or places that were particularly meaningful for you?

Irene Christodoulakis: Yeah. I grew up right off Audubon Park and I'm still here, but my mother, what she would do, with the level of resourcefulness, she made it a point for us as kids to always get as much information and access to education as possible, even though we were growing up in the inner city public school system, and we didn't have a drama club, we didn't have an arts class, we didn't have anything. But what she would do is every weekend for like 10 or 15 years, she would put us on the bus all the way from Danforth Ave, all the way down to the main branch public library next to Van Vorst Park. And we would spend the afternoon at the library and she wouldn't let us take out any less than five books each. And we had to read them and she would ask us, "What was it about? What did you learn?" And if we had a question about a word, what something meant, we had a little worn out dictionary. She would always just say, "Look it up. Look it up. Look it up, look it up." And that was her famous expression.

If we didn't know something, she made sure that we found the answer on our own because there was no handholding. Because there was also, I mean, my mother, my parents, they weren't able to finish high school. They went to school. They were raised in Greece, they went to school in Greece. They both had to drop out to get jobs to provide for their families. So when they came here, neither of them have high school diplomas. So there's also a level of information that they didn't know either, but they didn't want us to be hindered by that. So I really value that she did that. So Van Vorst park and the main branch public library are very prominent memories. She would also take us to Lincoln Park and Liberty State Park a lot and made sure that we were active and that we saw things. And she was just, my mom's amazing.

Nat Kalbach: Your mom sounds really amazing.

Irene Christodoulakis: She's the best.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah. So I didn't know that you were first generation immigrant. That's amazing. Do you speak Greek?

Irene Christodoulakis: I do. Yeah.

Nat Kalbach: That's so cool. So my mom was a single mom and the library and librarians were my babysitters.

Irene Christodoulakis: Yeah.

Nat Kalbach: And so that is so interesting because I think really that libraries are one of the best places ever and when I go into the library, I wonder if you feel the same. Doesn't matter which one. I just feel really home.

Irene Christodoulakis: I feel the same way. Exactly right. It doesn't matter which library I'm in, what state I'm in, if I walk into a library, they're the cornerstone of education and community because at least for a time they were open for so many hours. Now it's a little bit different, funding and all, I don't know what's gonna happen there, but you could sit and you could read for hours and you could use the computer for hours and you could just learn, learn, learn. And that was amazing, 'cause we didn't have computers in the schools, you know, like our library was like a bookshelf with old copies of books that nobody was really reading. But at the library it was just, it's amazing. It's, I feel very, very grateful to have access to all of that.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah, definitely. So you chose to stay in Jersey City for your education. You attended St. Peters University, you graduated top of major. I heard too. What led you to the decision to stay in Jersey City rather than going somewhere else?

Irene Christodoulakis: You know, I just want it to be as cost efficient as possible. It didn't make sense to pay for out-of-state fees. And St. Peter's is right there. I can hop on the 80 bus or the journal square bus and just go and it's right there. And I didn't have to pay for room and board because I was still living at home. It just, and they gave me the biggest scholarship. So that's why, that's the primary reason why I went to St. Peter's. But also it's a Jesuit university and I'd never had private schooling before, so I didn't really know what that entailed. But when I had our interview rounds and you were taken through tours of the schools and you would meet the professors, the Jesuit education is a fantastic education. It's very, very rich, and they make it a point to focus on non-Western studies. So it is absolutely mandatory to take, I believe it's at least four courses that are non Eurocentric, whether it's history, philosophy, modern culture, anything. But it cannot be from the West. It can be global south, the east, the continent of Africa, and non-Western philosophy, which was and non-Western religion. So you would have to take world religions that was mandatory and you would have to take a full year of philosophy and you would have to take a full year of a language.

And the languages they offered were ASL, Korean, Japanese, Arabic, classical Latin, archaic Latin, Greek. You know, it was just all these languages that are very beneficial to a person, but you might not have them at another college. And yeah, so I really value what they taught us.

Nat Kalbach: That's really cool. I had no idea. That's amazing. What language did you pick?

Irene Christodoulakis: I picked a classical Latin. It was really fun. I still have my Latin texts and so I like to like brush up sometimes and read through them. That's another thing, like the textbooks were so fascinating and interesting that I still have 'em today and I still read them sometimes. It's really good material, really good sources and references. When you're writing history, you're just wanting to read history, the college textbooks are the best. Unfortunately, not everybody has access to them, which I wish could change.

Nat Kalbach: Very cool. By the way, I took Latin too.

Irene Christodoulakis: See, like you and me we're just having one thing in common after another.

Nat Kalbach: I know. I'm like, this is so funny.

Irene Christodoulakis: So funny.

Nat Kalbach: People are like, "Oh, that's terrible." And I was like, I actually liked Latin.

Irene Christodoulakis: I liked it a lot. It was fun.

Nat Kalbach: Was fun. It's not super easy, but it's like also a lot of just learning.

Irene Christodoulakis: Yeah. It's vocab, you know.

Nat Kalbach: You also learn all these cool stories. I don't think I could do a lot anymore.

Irene Christodoulakis: When I look at the side of a building, I'm like, I think I know what that says. Both words are familiar kind of.

Nat Kalbach: So how do you think how St. Peters then influenced your creative development and also did it actually even strengthen your connection to the city, given that this is a real Jersey City institution?

Irene Christodoulakis: Absolutely. I went to St. Peter's to study history and art history and I received a business law minor in certification as well, 'cause I wanted to work in museums and galleries. But while I was there, I was introduced to the Drama Society on campus, which has been active since the early 1930s. They're called Argus Eyes Drama Society. And I just happened to have met the creative team and production team, and those people are Jersey City professional artists across all mediums.

So I met people like Mason Beggs, who's a fantastic theater director. I met Andrea McKenna, who's a fantastic visual artist and she was designing the sets. I met Lance Michel who was doing the lighting design, and these are all people who were established in their careers. And before then, I hadn't met so many artists like that who were as creative as humanly possible, but they also had a stable career. It was mind blowing. And so I decided to work with the Drama Society on the production side of things, and they taught me so much and because of them I was introduced to the arts community and I was introduced to musicians like Giselle Bellas and visual artists like Javier Rodriguez. We just had her fifth anniversary of her passing last night. And I was like 18 years old when I met these people, you know what I mean? And so it's been 10 years and I'm still so close to them and they've taught me everything that I know. So it opened my world. Being at St. Peter's, I wouldn't have met them otherwise. I wouldn't be working with Art House otherwise, you know. So it changed everything for me.

Nat Kalbach: That is so cool. And I love to hear that Andrea McKenna, who I really love too, did the sets for the productions there. Also you know, I write the history of my house as a book, and the old house is an old lady who tells the story. One of the guys who lived here, one of the families was a doctor's family from the thirties to the almost the sixties. Dr. Doody, which is just the name is amazing. Dr. Doody went to St. Peters and so did his son and I did some research just like a month or two months ago at St. Peters University. And one of the sons, he was in the Drama club in the fifties in the Argus, so I knew the name when you said it. I was like, yeah, I just found pictures of him in a play. Some of them are a little tough because I, I wouldn't like show them because there's like, you know...

Irene Christodoulakis: No need to say anything.

Nat Kalbach: Yep. You got it. I'm like, no, you're not Japanese.

Irene Christodoulakis: No, no. Oh my God. First of all, don't take that out. Second of all, that is so cool, and that's what I love so much about Jersey City. We all have a connection to one another, even though it's a big city, but like we all in a way, like we're all so, so connected and that's my favorite thing I think about Jersey City. That's so cool.

Nat Kalbach: So as a gallery assistant at Art House Productions now, and you also volunteered at Raven Gallery and then at Art House productions even before you graduated. And I guess that what drew you to those organizations was that you got to know them through the college, then also they were in Jersey City, or is there more?

Irene Christodoulakis: That's the premise. Most certainly. But it's also the emotional connection as well. I think that's what brought me back consistently. It's, I was never, oh my God, I'm gonna get emotional. I was never like, judged or questioned or anything. It was, this kid is interested in what we do. Let's welcome her with open arms without being condescending, without being unkind, or without being sarcastic or cruel. These people just taught me everything that they knew and my heart just kept coming, you know? I just kept being drawn back to them.

A lot of people want the younger generation to be involved in the arts. I don't just mean in Jersey City in general, there is constant conversation about the younger generation not being as connected to the arts, at least in a traditional way as their predecessors. But sometimes certain individuals of the previous generation don't open their arms to the younger.

Nat Kalbach: Mm.

Irene Christodoulakis: So how can they feel included? How can you pass it on? So with the Jersey City Arts community, I'm very grateful to say that they always welcomed me and that's why I always kept coming back.

Nat Kalbach: That's amazing that that's very special, so how do you feel in your role now at Art House Productions? How do you see your role in supporting local artists and the broader community?

Irene Christodoulakis: Oh yeah. You know, Art House's Mission from the get go has always been to support the local artists. It was founded in 2001, after the nine 11 attacks where, Christine Goodman and a bunch of other creatives felt, you know what? The world is extremely bleak right now. It is extremely desolate. And all of these, all of our loved ones, all of these wonderful people, they just need a little bit of hope, a little bit of joy, a little bit of beauty in their lives, something to turn to. And that's how Art House was created. And now, 24 years later, we have another desolate thing occurring and people are turning towards one another, even more now than I've seen, since maybe before Covid. And I think that's, it's an amalgamation of things. I think it's coming out of the Covid pandemic current political state of things. It has everybody turning towards one another and really leaning on one another. And it feels like Art House's mission is continuing to be maintained.

But for me, from a logistical standpoint, I am always looking for artists in Jersey City to show. We always have our submissions open at Art House, to send work of all mediums. And it doesn't matter if the person has never shown their work before. We get questions like that a lot, you know? "Oh, I'm so shy about showing my work." I don't know if I can just show it to us. It's okay. And we just had a show a couple months back where there was a fantastic artist and he'd have a heart attack if I spoke to you about him, said it because he's so shy and nervous about his art. His work is impeccable and he had never shown it before. And he's a lovely man. He's middle aged, he's in his mid forties and it's the most stunning work. And this was the first time he'd ever shown it. And it's just amazing. And the response he got, he was emotional. We were emotional. And that's what you wanna see. You wanna see people emotionally connect to the work. You wanna highlight people who maybe have not had a chance to show their work before. So yeah, that's really what we look for. And then we always have open calls for art. We have one in June, for disabled artists. And then we're gonna have another open call in October, and we're just let the submissions roll in. You know what I mean? Like we love to show as many artists as possible.

Nat Kalbach: That is really cool. And it's true that's such a staple to the city. I love how you also had just a heap, which was really cool and very different. It's a really, really cool place. So if anyone hasn't been to the Art House Gallery yet, and is nearby, or in Jersey City, you definitely should come. You have this like, really fascinating duality because you are working on major productions like The Penguin and The Gilded Age while you're also staying to the Jersey City art scene. So how do you... I mean, there were picture of you on the red carpet, so how do you navigate between these two worlds?

Irene Christodoulakis: Do you know, it really feels that way sometimes because working with the Jersey City artists, it's penny nickel dime sometimes. We were building sets, we were shooting music videos, we are building sets and shooting music videos with $0. You know, that hasn't really changed. And it's kind of whiplash going from helping like musicians gather resources to the very next day, going onto a massive budget set that's distributed by, and funded by HBO or NBC or other ones. It is two different worlds and when it comes to the big budget sets, it's sometimes, and not necessarily with The Penguin, for example. The Penguin was amazing and it really felt like the creativity and the artistry was at the forefront, every step of the way. And other productions, it's a logistical thing, especially with multis seeds and shows, right? There's a format. So even if there's a different director every episode, that show is still shot a certain way.

With shows like The Penguin because it's a one-off mini series and it's trying to match the creativity and the darkness and the grit of the Batman film, there is more leeway so that you can see the directors and the screenwriters play a little bit, and that's really cool to see. 'Cause you don't often see that nowadays in high budget television. But yeah, I never intended to work in television as a career. I always was taught to have a plan growing up. What's Plan A? That doesn't work. What's plan B with plan C? But when I was at St. Peter's and I was working more and more with creatives, and learning more about screenwriting and theater and film, I was working on some non-union shows and films and things like that. And I was like, I love being on a set. Oh no, what does this mean? What do I do? I didn't anticipate this. And then, I had a art gallery job, at a gallery in soho. Awful place. I was miserable and I would've stayed there forever. But it was really the environment, it was a very difficult environment to be in. The employees were not kind to neither their workers, nor the people that would come in, which I hate that you're an art gallery. You want people to come in. You want people to learn about the art, otherwise, what's gonna keep them coming back, you know?

But shortly after that, I found out about this HBO internship through Blown Deadline Productions. David Simon's production company. And their focus was on hiring individuals from either the inner city or working class backgrounds, and they just didn't have access to television production. And so I applied and I got it, and I was placed on season three of The Deuce with Maggie Gyllenhaal, and it changed everything. I was suddenly meeting directors and first ads and department heads, who every single day looked at me and said, you can have a career in a creative place and be stable financially. I had never, you know what? It was just mind boggling. I was like, what? And so I decided then to just lead with joy and follow my heart, and so I began working on sets and on the weekends or when I had other days to come back to Jersey City and still volunteer at Art House, and I just really wanted to do what made me happy. I don't think that I had considered that before. You know what I mean? Because coming from first generation American, you're not, that's not in your mind. It's how do you become financially stable, which is understandable, especially nowadays, right? That's the forefront of everybody's minds. But it was actually extremely radical and it was something so simple, right, to just do what makes you happy. But now I'm the happiest I've ever been, and I get to do both. And so I really just follow my heart.

Nat Kalbach: I love that. And also it wasn't a coincidence, you saw it, you were seeking it out. Then you took the opportunity. I think that sometimes people say, oh, you're lucky, or, but it's not all luck. There is of course having the right thing coming at you, but also that you're taking that opportunity and you're just like diving in. That's so key I think, for these things to actually do something that's a little scary and out of your box. But like just taking the leap and doing it.

Irene Christodoulakis: Absolutely. I think that being proactive is the most important thing with anything that you do. If you're maybe in a city or a state where you think there isn't a film industry and television industry, you can contact your mayor's office or your governor's office. There's always a film and television department, and what they do is they give out the permits for film and TV shows to shoot. So what a lot of them have are databases and they will inform you of things that are shooting so you can reach out to these people. That's just one example, but that's being proactive, that's searching within your own backyard, within your own hometown. I think a lot of people feel like they have to move to LA or move to New York, or even to another country to make it somewhere. But it doesn't have to be that way. And for the Jersey City Arts community, I was just 18 and now like hanging around these people and I said, "Hey, can you show me how to do that?" And now I'm working with them as a full-time employee.

It's just being proactive and it's just putting yourself out there. And I think that, like you said, sometimes it is the right time and the right place. The right people will find you though I do believe with all my heart that we all find our place in life and we all find our community some way or another, being proactive is the absolute first step.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah. Being curious and voicing that too, which is, I mean, if you're not an extrovert, sometimes that's really hard. But I also wanna talk about your screenwriting and creative vision. So congratulations a little late now, but on your screenwriting success including winning the Save the Cat in 2021 as a screenplay challenge, and you were a semi-finalist, is that right? So could you tell us a little bit about your writing and what inspires your stories?

Irene Christodoulakis: Sure. So it's funny that you bring those awards up, which I'm very grateful for. I feel like I got really lucky though, they get thousands of submissions per year, you know, I mean, it's insanely difficult. So I was very lucky. Ironically enough, it's the same pilot for both awards and both achievements. And it's set in Jersey City in the 1930s about underground women boxing, and to answer your question, I feel like, I mean, everybody says write what you know. Right? And it's only natural from the dawn of time. Not just literature, but religion, folklore, tales, they're all based on one's environment.

There's a reason why Russian literature is the way Russian literature is. You know what I mean? And I love it, but you know, it's the environment. It's the geography, it's the ecosystem. It's the weather. It's fucking cold. They're not gonna write happy stories. It just is what it is.

Nat Kalbach: It's a lot of vodka.

Irene Christodoulakis: A lot of, oh yeah, oh yeah. Bring it on. When you're in an environment and you're a creative person, this is what you write is what you observe. It's the people that you meet every day. It's the places that you go. I always try to include aspects of our town in my work. Being that I do write also a lot of fantasy. So maybe not so much now, but I always go back and forth. It's kind of like high budget television, going back to Jersey City Arts and back and forth. It's fantasy, which still has grit and grimness, and still discusses evil and all that. But then I have screenplays set in Jersey City, at various eras and times and genres, you know?

And I remember actually after I won saved the cat, one of the things that you win is a like one-on-one conversation slash meeting with an agent from an esteemed agency. And they ask you your goals and stuff, and I was about 23, 24, I don't know, math, I'm sorry, at the time. And he asked me what my goals were and I stupidly was honest and said that I really wanted to forge ahead with the Jersey City Arts community, which is not a thing that you say to an agent, you gotta say, "Oh, I wanna do big budget, you know, Marvel movies." And he told me, "Yeah, don't ever tell an agent that again, 'cause that's not gonna make me any money." And I was like, "Oh, sorry." You know, very foolish of me. But that's what it is. And it's truer now than it was even then. Jersey City's just my focus, and even though there might come a project, high budget television project, that one might come along where I really love it, I'll go for it, but I'm always gonna come back 'cause I'm always gonna be here.

Nat Kalbach: I love that.

Irene Christodoulakis: Yeah, I'm not going anywhere.

Nat Kalbach: But I think like sometimes it's just maybe then also not the right fit. It doesn't mean that your idea is not good, if that's really where your heart is, you just keep at it. It might just be not the right timing and not the right people or the right place that you went to, but if your heart is in it, in that topic or in that field, then just keep on going at it. Like rejection doesn't mean anything.

So here in Jersey City, and I'm sure you think about that because you're writing about some of the stories in Jersey City, but what stories do you feel are untold or underrepresented that you would hope to bring to light through your work?

Irene Christodoulakis: Oh my gosh, there are so many things. I grew up in a time where downtown was completely empty, and that time feels so long ago, but it really wasn't. And in my lifetime alone, it's been built up so much. But it was empty. And my parents would say, "Yeah, there used to be like ladies of the night walking up and down the streets near the warehouses and all of that and the drug trade at the time." And it's just, I would never wanna romanticize the truth, but that's what it was.

And up here in Greenville, it hasn't changed very much either. It's still in a lot of ways very similar, but I feel like I don't need to romanticize downtown Jersey City because it's already been romanticized by developers and transplants with $120,000 salaries and so I would love to focus on Greenville and just throughout the decades, there's so much history here. And I've loved how important Jersey City has been to music, not just with Kool and the Gang or Queen Latifah, but we have lounge, like jazz lounge clubs, these are historical landmarks and they were pioneers of the New York City Metropolitan area music scene. And people don't really know about that or talk about that, or write about that. And I just think that as somebody who just loves music, that's also something that I would really want to discuss as well.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah, it's interesting. There's always, and I mean I do that too. I'm like, you know when you describe where you live and you say Jersey City, yeah, right across from Manhattan. Or you make that joke and I say that often to my friends in Hoboken, like, we are the sixth borough of New York. You're the seventh. Just so you know. But on the other hand, I think there is always this kind of weird identity crisis of Jersey City and that Jersey City can actually stand as its own city very well. I have another maybe fun question. Which neighborhoods could you imagine, like a certain street where you put a set up and have it play there?

Irene Christodoulakis: Absolutely. So I still think about the pilot that I wrote, which is, I mean, I wrote a whole series, a whole mini series, set in the 1930s in Jersey City, primarily in Greenville and the Heights, about the underground boxing scene.

Nat Kalbach: Was that based on a true story too, or?

Irene Christodoulakis: So in a way there was a growing underground female boxing scene, but it wasn't legitimized until the late forties and early 1950s. But I wasn't interested in telling the story of the Trailblazers. I was interested in telling the story of the people who attempted to be trailblazers and did not succeed. The people throughout history who tried their hardest and still failed anyway. I think those stories are more compelling to me than anything else. I think a lot of times we see films and shows of the one person who just made it and that's great and that can be inspiring. But for me, that reality, that heartbreak, that loss is something so relatable and it's so real and raw and I feel like a lot of people in Jersey City can relate to that. 'Cause we're all just trying to make something of ourselves, whatever that might look like for each person.

But yeah, there are images and I'm sure you've seen of Journal Square back in the day, decades and decades ago, and it's stunning. And it would be impossible to do logistically unless you had green screens and stuff. You know, you wouldn't be able to shoot there, you would have to maybe build a street that looked just like that but that would be insanely expensive. When I was on The Deuce, it's about the sex work industry in the seventies and eighties and how that took place in Times Square, but Times Square looks nothing like it. It's been Disneyfied now, and it didn't look anything like it does now. So we would have to go up to Amsterdam Ave and spanish Harlem to shoot because those streets still look similar architectural wise, to how Times Square looked back in the day. So logistically we'd have to do something like that to bring Old Jersey City back to life.

Nat Kalbach: I would love that. Have you seen, I really love the show Babylon Berlin, have you ever seen that?

Irene Christodoulakis: Best show of all time. No exaggeration, baby. I feel like a crazy person because nobody knows what I'm talking about. I'm so glad you've brought up this series. It is so brilliant. It is so good.

Nat Kalbach: And they built, they basically had this insane set build.

Irene Christodoulakis: It is cool. It's fantastic. I mean, the production design alone, you could spend hours talking about it. It's just so detailed. It's gorgeous. Everything about that show is so fantastic.

Nat Kalbach: I agree. I would love to see your set and your story being done.

Irene Christodoulakis: I wish that would be so fun. I did play with the idea and I just have to get a couple of grants to do it, of doing a short, which would be like a day in the life of a female underground boxer in the late 1930s with the looming threat of World War II breaking out.

Nat Kalbach: So how, in terms of the future in general, what do you hope to see for Jersey City's art community in the coming years?

Irene Christodoulakis: I would really hope that neighborhoods like Greenville are paid attention to a little more. Being a part of Art House, we have an advantage now because we've kind of built ourselves up over the last 20 years of being able to highlight different galleries or little museums and artists in general around Jersey City that wouldn't have ordinarily gotten attention. And that's really the focus of JC Fridays, which is the citywide event, and it's a scavenger hunt, and you hit all points across all neighborhoods. And I would just love to see spaces like Project Greenville get more attention, and the Greenville artists in general.

I mean, I'm a Greenville artist, you know, and I just love how eclectic we all are, across all mediums. I mean, Jersey City's like that in general. You could throw a stone and hit 12 artists and they're just completely different mediums and artistry. But I think Greenville is routinely ignored and maybe it's a class issue, it's a social issue. And I think it's also a race issue. We're the most diverse community here in Jersey City and we're also the last to be gentrified. I mean, right now, I don't know if you hear it, but behind our house, they're building a five story condo, you know? And so like every morning at 7:00 AM they're drilling. So they finally hit us.

But for so long it wasn't like that. And we have graffiti artists here. We have poets, slam poets. We have musicians who just play in the street who just perform. They might not know about venues or spaces, right? But I would really love them to get highlighted as well. And so that's really a big reason why I'm also grateful to be at Art House, because now I can shine a light onto those people.

Nat Kalbach: I think that's amazing because now you're in a place where you can bring the attention to those people that can actually then help artists and show their work. That is so cool, what a great position to be in.

Irene Christodoulakis: I'm very grateful. It's all I've ever really wanted to do. I've always just focused on Jersey City, but especially my neighborhood, like my neighbors, my people up here, you know?

Nat Kalbach: Right. It's really interesting, how you forget, especially when you're living in a different neighborhood. And also because unfortunately lots of us who live in other wards are not going so often, but there are many reasons. For example, Project Greenville, which I will link up because it's such a cool thing and I hope that I will have Elizabeth, who's running it, on the show next season. So I would love to ask you my last question, which is my signature question. So if you could spend an afternoon, Irene with anyone from Jersey City's past, who would it be? Which corner would you choose as your meeting spot and what one question would you ask them?

Irene Christodoulakis: So as soon as you informed me about this signature question, I feel like I knew my answer immediately. But I wanted to take the time to really think about it. But I think right off the bat, my answer would be Venus Extravaganza. She was a trans woman and drag performer, and she was from Jersey City. And that amazed me because I was 19 when I watched Paris is Burning for the first time. And she was so young and so self-assured and so unafraid of anything. And she was a part of the famous House of Extravaganza, one of the major drag houses in New York. And to this day, she is revered, she is remembered by not just the drag community, but the queer community as a whole.

And it's just incredible that this person who shaped so much of queer culture is from our city. And she was killed during the filming of Paris is Burning, and she was 23 years old. And the first time I watched that film, I was about four years younger than her. And now I'm five years older than she was when she passed. And I've still not reached that level of self-assurance, of bravery, of just being oneself.

And to answer the second part of your question, and where would we meet? Wherever she was most comfortable, wherever she wanted. And what would I ask her? Like, do you wanna come live with me? And it's just like, I think a lot of us feel such a connection to her. Whether you're from Jersey City or you live in Jersey City, or you're part of the queer community, she was such a light and she remains such a light, and it means a lot that she is revered and remembered the way that she has been. But it does mean a lot that she was from here.

What a culture shifter, there's so many phrases, there's so many things that she just did that was so naturally her that are referenced to this day. Not just her, but so many other people in Jersey City have that. There's just something about us. It's special. It's like when you're growing up in not the best of conditions, the character, the personality that comes out of that, that is born from that is so magnificent. And again, I don't wanna romanticize our origins, I don't want to do that. But I will say that there's just something about our level of resourcefulness, our level of creativity, our level of thinking that is just unlike anything else. And that's one of the main things I love about Jersey City. It's one of the main things I love about Venus Extravaganza. So, yeah.

Nat Kalbach: That makes me happy that you're actually, that is such a great person to mention. And also, I forgot the street right where she lived with her grandmother. And that was just, um, last year or two years ago, landmarked, her, I think brother or her family, and actually the Extravaganza ballhouse petitioned for it to be landmarked and it was, and I'm really happy that it was. It's the first time that I learned about the story and the history that was amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much, Irene.

Irene Christodoulakis: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. This was such a wonderful conversation.

Nat Kalbach: Thank you, Irene, for this conversation that really reveals the spirit of creativity and resilience that defines Jersey City. Your words about how when you're growing up in not the best conditions, the character, the personality that comes out of that is so magnificent, really perfectly captures why these local stories matter.

What struck me most was your mention of Venus Extravaganza whose influence on culture extends far beyond our city limits. It reminds us that Jersey City has always been home to remarkable people whose stories deserve to be told whether they achieve widespread recognition or not.

In that spirit, I'll be sharing an article on my Substack next week, exploring other lgbtq plus histories from Jersey City. These stories like yours reflect that unique combination of resourcefulness, creativity, and character that defines our community and oftentimes other urban communities as well.

Until then, make sure to check out the show notes with visuals and resources for this episode at natkalbach.substack.com. Thank you for listening to Nat's Sidewalk Stories. I'm your host, Nat Kalbach. Join me next time when I'll be speaking with Ted Chubb, who is a world class trumpeter and co-owner of the Statuary, a home open to the community that invites people to enjoy jazz.

Our theme music is How You Amaze Me, composed by Jim Kalbach and performed by Jim Kalbach, Bryan Beninghove, Charlie Siegler and Pat Van Dyke.


Nathalie Kalbach
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Episode #107: Saving the Spirit with Colin Egan